Defending the Raven

Bisexual. Married. Man. Open. Read On.

Would Anyone Care to Comment?

Well who would have thought that the two most personal posts I have ever posted would turn into the most intense comment discussion on this blog ever. First of all I want to thank anyone who comments. I realize that given the nature of this blog it’s not always easy to raise your hand and say something, but it’s really wonderful and great when you do. Second, let it be clear that I do not share everything about myself or my marriage with you all here. There are nuances and more personal things that frankly I don’t feel comfortable sharing. I have friends to talk to that I share those things with, but I don’t feel comfortable sharing with everyone. In fact there were a number of things in these two posts that would normally cross the line for me. So you don’t get the full story. Thirdly, I will admit to being a fairly crude person in my use of language sometimes. Maybe it’s because I grew up with an Irish-blooded mother who would tell it like it is or when having a good time with friends and gets a little drunk every there word out of her mouth is “Fuuuuuck” (with a little spit at the end for emphasis). However, there is using crude language for emphasis and effect, and there is using crude language to be unnecessarily hateful.

Overnight there were a series of comments to Part 2 of my The Real World posts. David started things out with a direct and forward assault in which it came down to calling me “a fucking whore bitch” — more pointedly that I could to continue to be that, but all the same. I was taken aback and pissed off because, sorry David, but that isn’t fucking called for. Furthermore, I was pissed off because I wanted to scream at him and ask did he think I was a total unfeeling asshole. That these things AREN’T issues and questions I haven’t thought about? Because if that’s the case he hasn’t been reading my blog much. In fact, I did a post in the first month I had this blog on Selfishness and Being Bisexual that marries well with David’s initial comments. The sad fact of the matter is that the points he makes are entirely valid. To quote:

“You act like an addict…drugs booze sex it is all the same. And if you want to hang around other junkies instead of your wife… then you are hooked… you have no self control and therefore always hunger for more. The hunger will never go away, you will always want that cigarette, joint, beer, dick in your mouth, but you will be filled [?]”

“You call it coming to terms with you you are-accepting that you are bi-sexual/gay. I call that bullshit. How much do you have to FUCK around before you find out who you are…..it’s just an excuse, Mark….you don’t need to FUCK to accept who you are. You are more then an a series of holes to have other people stick things. “

First of all let’s be quite clear here. If you think for one moment that I am off hooking up with other people on a regular basis and just whoring around you are sadly mistaken. In fact that is quite the opposite case. It is true that I may engage in online conversations and even experience casual nights out with a friend who is also bi and married where we go to gay bars and clubs. However, when I have engaged in any sex with man it was been WITH SR or she has known about. Second, I will never say that having sex with men is coming to terms with accepting that I am bi. Been there, done that. It’s accepted. In fact the urge or desire is expressing my bi side. But I will not discount your argument on whether I need to express that urge and desire through sex within the context of my marriage. That is a real issue I do struggle with. However, I know two things. One, men like you David can be bisexual and not need to express that. That is fantastic and wonderful for you. But I also know men who are married who do express those desires sexually within the context of their marriage in similar ways that SR and I do and have perfectly strong and healthy marriages. In fact, our good friends J&R have one of the strongest marriages I have seen. This is not a one size fits all proposition David.

The biggest thing that pisses me off is that there is David’s comments about unprotected sex. Now I’m not sure what gave you the right to make that assumption David. In fact, safe sex is the most important thing to me. I could stand to get a disease for myself because of my own careless actions, but I could never live with myself to give something to someone else, most importantly my wife, because of those actions. DON’T make that ignorant assumption because it is so off base you have no idea.

However, at the end of the day the sad fact of the matter is that what David is saying is my FUCKING point (see crude language used properly for emphasis). I put these two posts up unedited because I knew I wasn’t ready to write about them just myself, with my own commentary. This was a very important and vital conversation between SR and myself. Hence, my fear in putting it up because it is so personal. I fully recognize that the choices I make could ultimately end my marriage. The decisions I make for myself could be decisions that SR can’t live with. I understand EXACTLY what my wife is saying David. It may not be the exact same thing you are hearing, but I’m going to remain firm in the belief that I know my wife better than you do. This is an ongoing conversation between SR and myself. I do understand clearly where she stands. But David just because you seem so well adjusted to be able to keep your bisexual feelings in control doesn’t mean that there are others who struggle with it more (and I don’t know your circumstances because you haven’t shared them. so are you single? are you married? are you in a relationship? those are important factors that do color your opinion).

Lastly, the thing I want to be most clear about is that the overwhelming feeling I got out of this conversation with SR is not the wants and needs I have in terms of my bisexual feelings. Those I understand and can figure out what I need to do. Yes, I have urges and desires and was defining the terms to explore them in the context of my marriage. Knowing SR’s feelings more I am redefining for myself how I can express those desires in a way that is healthy for us (again not a one size fits all proposition). However, there are bigger issues within our marriage that are persistent that do have effects on this. I do question how sexually compatible SR and I are. And I do think about the ramifications the answer to that question has. THAT is the big question for me. In fact, while you we all discussing what being bi is and what I was looking for and wanting and the right or wrong choices I was going to make, I was thinking more about what I need to do to fix that issue within my marriage. Sex isn’t everything – maybe. However, to say it’s nothing is ignorant and stupid. The fact of the matter is that the entire rest of our marriage and relationship is so strong and fantastic. We mesh so perfectly in every other area except in the bedroom. We have made changes and grown more, but is it enough for me… The simple answer is no, and it has nothing to do with wanting a dick in my mouth. How I/we fix that will be important. Do I wonder if my urges to explore with others is reflection of being unhappy with my married sex life? Of course. So fixing it id the bigger thing that came out of the conversation for me.

But let me be clear if we decide to work harder together to have a sex life that satisfies us both then that is a choice we will make. Or if we decide to invite others into our bed or allow each other to have people on the side that will be a choice we make together and it will be something we own. And it will be as valid as anyone else’s choice. The reason is because we are being open with each other. And talking to each other. And making these choices and sacrifices together. And we are fully aware of the consequences of some of the choices we might make.

So David while you make entirely valid and good points I will not necessarily submit that you are right. Because in fact SR will not leave me. If we decide to end our marriage it will be one of the choices we make together. And maybe that is the biggest point I want to make in sharing all of this. We are having the tough conversations that many couples straight, gay, mixed or otherwise don’t have. We don’t have all the answers, but what we have is an open channel to share what we are each feeling and figure out how to have the best marriage for us. And we will have ownership in the choices we make for us. And that is where I refuse to let anyone judge me. The choices we have made are ours. They are right for us and that’s all that matters. So the choices we make that come out of this conversation will be ours and right for us. I share them because maybe the process will be good for others and maybe the choices may even be right for others. That’s the point of me writing this blog.

Stick around David because many of your points are not far off target, extremely valid, and entirely welcome. Just tone down the rhetoric. Your passion is commendable…. your choice of words may not be.

And thanks again everyone who commented. Keep it up — it’s good!

; ; ; ;

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November 2, 2006 - Posted by | Uncategorized

14 Comments »

  1. I am not a bad chap,Mark,and I have feel that you are too.Do you you know what MSG is,Mark?I have had to give that up because my wife gets migaines from it.Around 120 migraines a year.That’s like one every third day.Have you ever lost someone to aids or knew someone that did?Did you ever try to have a child but couldn’t?
    These are aches,Mark,real aches.
    The trouble with selfish pleasure is that you gain very little from it…except,it’s opposite.
    Ever hear of no pain-no gain?it takes a thousand things sometime to make my wife happy…but all it takes to make me happy is for her to show me her tits…and she knows that.That brings her joy.Do you think SR knows that joy?Do you think she should?Suppose she doesn’t…but still loves you so much to let you go out and swing.I think it is stupid on her part-she should be threatening to cut your balls off-but she thinks she is showing you her love…you know…sort of like her tits{sidenote…does she read this blog?].How are you showing her your love,Mark?
    As for my language:Fuck off Dick head!

    Comment by David | November 2, 2006 | Reply

  2. Ok, know what David I tried to be nice and polite and even agree with you. But what pisses me off about you is that you assume I have no life experience that I have not gone through things. So David here’s some fucking life experience for you. How about being a teenager and watching your grandmother slowly die over a 8 year period because her body was literally shutting down. She couldn’t walk, eat, or shit on her own. How about having to help your grandmother onto the toliet. How about not being able to understand her when she talked, but you could see the frustration in her eyes because her brain was still there. How about watching my godfather who I love like my father who was a dentist and an extremely handy man who made furniture — watch the ravaging effects of parkinsons on his life. So fuck you David. Apparently you are the perfect man. We will build a statue to you now and worship in your holier than though shadow.

    You don’t know me David and if you think this blog is all of me you are horribly mistaken. Yes my wife and I have had others in our bed. But let’s be clear David she is getting as much enjoyment and satisfaction out of it as me. If you don’t believe me read her own words in Part 2. Don’t forget she’s bi too. She’s enjoyed things as much. And just because I have other urges and desires DOES NOT mean I do not show my wife love. You don’t know me or my wife. You are seeing the difficult parts of our marriage not the fantastic joys of it.

    So it’s so great and wonderful that you are perfect. The rest of us imperfect people will just have to survive as best we can in our inferiority.

    I find it ironic that you said you “rooting [sic]” for me and my wife. I hope you show your wife the same just of support when she has a migraine.

    So what’s your point David? Truly? You here to make yourself feel better or make the rest of us feel like shit?

    Comment by Raven in NYC (aka Mark) | November 2, 2006 | Reply

  3. Perfect?Kiss my ass.You think because you’ve seen suffering that makes you any different then anybody else.all I have been saying to you is that you have choices.And you don’t have to be perfect to make them.Do you think because I disagree with you that I don’t like you?is that how it is with you?I am your brother in arms.I had to make the same choices you are making now..and made the what I believe to be the correct ones..if that makes me perfect in your eyes..then you are just seeing yourself seven years down the road.You don’t need my advice…this whole talking to you-I guess I was just trying to convince myself of somethings-and taking it out on you.I will leave you with this word of advice(totally meaningless)sometimes the right thing to doIS THE WRONG THING TO DO

    Comment by David Bruce Banner | November 2, 2006 | Reply

  4. Mark (and feel free to tell me to mind my own if you’d like–LOL), but if I were in your shoes, I’d ignore David entirely (and I know that’s rather hard to do because he’s being a complete asshole). He appears to enjoy endless confrontation and he’s just going to keep taunting you to get it.

    What’s sad is, if he’d have spoken rationally instead of being insulting and rude, there could’ve been an interesting discussion addressing his points, but I don’t believe that’s what he wanted–he just wanted to piss you off.

    Just my opinion.

    Comment by SD | November 2, 2006 | Reply

  5. Hi Mark,

    Really I just want to say thank you so much for sharing.

    I’m not going through anything you are, but only because I’ve not yet reached that stage in my life. But I suspect I will have to address them at some point and having this kind of thing as a reference will surely help. These are difficult issues and I’m sure we will all come to different conclusions based on our differing relationships.

    Whatever conclusions you do come to I am impressed with how you are dealing with it. And how your wife is dealing with it. The openness (both on this blog and between you and SR) is inspiring.

    I’ve linked to this series of posts on my blog — I hope that is okay.

    Al

    Comment by Al | November 2, 2006 | Reply

  6. Thanks SD. You do make a good point, but I guess I didn’t want to let anyone get off easy in their comments when they can make a worthwhile contribution, but I choose to leave things as is for the time being.

    Al, I’m so glad the conversations have been useful. Welcome to the fray. By all means link to my blog. I’m gonna starting diving into yours and reading. Thanks for commenting!

    Comment by Raven in NYC (aka Mark) | November 2, 2006 | Reply

  7. hey there Mark,
    I am just getting caught up.
    You’ve been busy here darling, haven’t you? 🙂
    All I can say is, after having met both you and SR in real life this past summer, and knowing you through your blog for two years now, it truly reaffirms more than ever the depth each and every person has.
    No one can truly KNOW someone else just by reading a few words of thier up and downs.
    Passing judgement on others through commenting on what THEY think they know is best for you is absurd.
    I had that done to me quite a few times and I tell you it gets annoying.
    The whole point to all this written expression is (I hope), like cymber and SD have said, is that you can express yourself here and get it all out, re-read it, if necessary, and hopefully grow as a person as you go.
    Being negative and judgemental helps no one in a great conversation, and achieves little.
    Ahhh, as a great prophet once said…
    “let he who hath sinned not cast the first stone.”
    errr… or something like that.
    😉
    True debate is honest, courageous and from the heart.
    My best to you and SR …as always.

    Comment by e.e. | November 3, 2006 | Reply

  8. Mark, it seems that David is most useful to you in providing a foil for your own ruminations. I hate to think of you churning over his commentary in any serious way–he seems to need someone to argue against, and you fit the bill–but if it spurs good self-realization, all the better.

    You do realize his comments are otherwise unnecessarily rude and, frankly, pretty fucked, right? Maybe it’s just the coincidence of reading David now, but he sure reminds me of the fellow in this video I sent to Viviane.

    Comment by Jefferson | November 3, 2006 | Reply

  9. Jefferson I’m totally with you. Actually I was a little annoyed with myself that I did engage him so directly in this thread.

    The video you sent Viviane is indescribable. It’s too good to be believed… though I think that guy is his own brand of crazy for sure.

    Comment by Raven in NYC (aka Mark) | November 3, 2006 | Reply

  10. Mark, yes I care to comment.

    What a world wind! I had no idea that you were going to consume my morning. But it’s been a captivating conversation, with sooooo many cross-references. You sent me to Florida, San Francisco, the UWS, LA, Arizona, the UK, Long Island, Michigan…

    But there were so many valid things to read, or reread, I couldn’t stop. And so many themes:
    * Honesty
    * Open marriages vs. infidelity
    * Friendships/relationships vs. meaningless sex
    * Acceptance vs. expression
    * Being vs. doing
    * Self control
    * Morality
    * Passion/emotion vs. logic
    * Consequences for one’s actions
    * Vulgarity
    * Responsibility

    This trip has gotten me dizzy.

    But, Mark (and SR) I’m continually impressed with your dialogue. Even if you’re just sitting on the couch sending IMs to each other. It’s something you have that I wish I did. Did I say envy?

    I think a relevant summary is found in a comment you left on another blog, “she is an amazing woman who surprises me everyday of my life. It’s a constant open dialogue and it’s not always perfect, but I can honestly say that we are both much happier together.”

    Comment by Paul | November 3, 2006 | Reply

  11. wow you’ve been getting a lot of unnecessary vitriol lately

    Comment by Evan | November 6, 2006 | Reply

  12. Mark forget this David dude. I just read your convo with SR and it hit home. Sounds like a convo between the wife and I to the T. Thanks for havingthe balls to post that. It honestly is hitting home.

    Thank you!!!

    Eroduoux
    intopinkandblue.wordpress.com

    Comment by Anonymous | November 6, 2006 | Reply

  13. Hi Mark,

    I apologize for adding fuel to the “David” fire, but I can’t imagine his wife’s migraines were solely a result of MSG. And I know I’d show him my tits if I thought it would shut him up for a minute or two.

    We can only hope he has moved on to crusades more worthy of his noble selflessness, such as advising Reverend Haggard on choosing more discreet rentboys.

    Hang in there.

    Flip

    Comment by Flip | November 6, 2006 | Reply

  14. If you ever visit Orlando, Florida check out “The House” – a really nice Orlando Swingers Club.

    Comment by Anonymous | January 23, 2007 | Reply


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