Defending the Raven

Bisexual. Married. Man. Open. Read On.

The Real World: Part 2, The IMs

What started as an email conversation between SR and myself in Part 1 continued into an im conversation. This was a further conversation from the conversation we had previously. It centered around me asking her if it was cool if I got together with a guy I’d become friendly with online. Before I go in just a couple notes for reading. JMac is a single bi guy that we’ve met a couple of times together. J&R are a bi married couple we’re good friends with. I sometimes have guys nights out with him as gay bars in the citey. L&R are another married couple we’ve met with. He’s more bi than his wife and she’s not completely 100% comfortable with everything.

So with that introduction here is the full chat.

sr: did u get my last e-mail?

mark: yeah

sr: I don’t want you to think I am not ok with you having dinner with Sam.

mark: no no no

sr: ok.

mark: i totally get it

sr: ok

mark: i mean this is the first time we’ve even really gone here and i understand

sr: I’ll admit. I feel like I am at this weird crossroads where I know what you want me to say and do, but I don’t know that I am ready to say and do that. And don’t knwo that I ever will.

mark: i mean you know that i would love to be out there more together, but it’s a matter of having time…. we are jealous of our time together so that limits things

sr: I want to make you happy. And I realize that this is a part of that. But I also need to remember that I am a part of this too and I can’t not be true to myself.

mark: I mean yes I’ll admit I’m hornier a lot more than you… but you are a bigger part of me than the other things too

I don’t want you to do something that doesn’t make you comfortable and that ends up hurting you

I don’t want that at all

I mean I’

I don’t want to be with someone else the way I am with you…

sr: I know you don’t. And I know I am not most active with getting out there. And that you would like to be out there more, but again, I did that for a while and I am somehow less enthused about anonymous sex with people. It was fun. Now, not so much. I love you to have fun nights out where you can explore who you are and mess around with people and I can do that same. But for me, that is prob. where my “desires” end. Unfortunately, I recognize that you want more. But honestly, I am not sure I am ok with more. More than just that one night kiss or hook-up.

I want to be ok with what you need.

But then I want you to be MINE. Bc you are my husband. and that’s what I signed up for. And bc you made a commitment to me. And I am not sure I can ever really convince myself that someone you are friends with and hang out with and talk to nightly AND have sex with is anything BUT a relationship even if you say you don’t want to have that with anyone.

I don’t knwo how to call it anything else…

what would you call it?

mark: I mean I’m not looking to have a relationship with someone… a boyfriend on the side. I do enjoy our nights out where we can explore the other side of things and will admit to wishing to be able to explore it further than the flirting and making out in a bar. I guess I understand how you can equate it with a relationship….. but I suppose the fact that I’m married and nothing more is possible it takes it down a notch… i mean fuck buddy is a cruel term but i suppose more fitting as crude as it is

sr: The strange this is, I want to just tell you yes, go ahead. But then I get a strong feeling that I would not be true to myself and I woudl be jealous and unhappy. I feel so much more comfortable with our anonymous pairings (and when I said before it wasn’t fun now, that is wrong–it is, we just haven’t found the “right” person recently!) . Or even you in an anonymous hook-up bc I know that there is nothing to come of that.

See, a fuck buddy is someone you ONLY see for sex. Not someone you talk to daily and have dinner with and have a friendship with. THAT is a relationship.

I am not saying you would LOVE them. BUt not every relationship involves love.

mark: right but in a way it’s not different than with JMac… he and I talk on a fairly regular basis… the difference is that you can insert yourself into it

sr: RIght–bc then it is OURS. If I am not in it…it isn’t ours.

mark: and I would agree we haven’t exactly found the right people of late… L&R are cool, but it does make me uncomfortable how removed she kinda seems from the experience

sr: I guess I always hoped tht you could go out and have a nice night of flirting and making out, but that you would want to come home to me. To our relationship. To wanting me. And I realize that you don’t NOT want me. But you want something else. And I am trying to figure out how to make that work, but I have to be honest that I don’t know how.

mark: I do want you and I know that’s not what you’re saying….

sr: The casual aspect of you hooking up with someone after a night out is so much better to me. But I also am not sure I am convinced that you can just do the one night stand thing. You always want to keep up a friendship with the person and talk to them and see them again. And that is where it gets uncomfortable. Granted, I am a bit of a hypocrit bc I also will say that i don’t want you trolling craigs list to find a one nigth stand. It seems more ok with it in the moment of being out and making out and having a good time. But then I want you to walk away. I don’t ever want to feel as though I am competing with someone for you.

mark: I guess I wish we could explore and expand things more between us too in just out alone time…

sr: I guess so, but how so?

mark: well I guess specifically it regards anal sex both me (and you, but I know you are less comfortable with it)… I have kinda included that in things for myself, but I guess I wish you were more involved in that on me…. but it also goes back to old issues of time and when and how. Sunday night was so nice and great, but guess also I’d enjoy the random moments of things… like on sat. when you were feeling horny… just giving into it. I love the teasing as well, but when you are like that I wish you’d take the active step and I guess just jump me…. it doesn’t always have to be like that because like I said sunday was so fun because it was just a slow build thing. i wasn’t sure if I would get you and I did and I love that

plus there was also that one night when I tied you down and teased you I guess it would be fun to be like that with each other from time to time…. and just push our boundaries together

sr: I am fine with pushing boundaries and you know I try.

mark: I know… don’t get me wrong things are so much better…. I feel like we are much more communicative in that regard and we know when things are right for each other and when not

and as far as “friendships” I guess I’ve only created friendships with people because that’s all I felt I could do.

sr: I am NEVER going to be who you want me to be sexually. I am just not that person. I try really hard. SO hard. but it just isn’t who I naturally am. So I just don’t understand. If you want something you have to know that I will try and make it fun and enjoy it. But you have to say it . You have to mkae it happen. Bc it won’t happen otherwise. It isn’t who I am. With other things I can say let’s try it (like hooking up with others) adn see how it goes. With this, I am who I am. I can’t apologize for it and I can’t change it. I feel like I have changed so much and have tried so hard already. Whether you feel like it or not, I honeslty have.

mark: I know you have and I don’t want you to be who you aren’t

I don’t want that at all… I don’t want you to do something for me because you feel you need to

sr: I already am… I guess that is what I am trying to say.

mark: I mean we could never have talked like this before and that in itself is positive and good

and it has made a huge difference for “us”

you are already are… meaning you already feel like you are being someone you aren’t


sr: yes

I feel like we had made so much progress, btu every step we take is just another step to another step. Even though I have been happy with where we are.

I feel like we will never stop.

I know I am not going to become a different person in the bedroom–I have already made so much progress, but I feel like it is never enough. If you want something more, realize that it is up to you to make that happen. Bc I am open to it, but I am also happy. I want to make you happy, but I am not going to become a different person. It is seriously stressful to me. I feel like I will never make you happy and that makes me stressed and unhappy.

mark: I mean I don’t know what to say to the fact that you feel like you are being someone you aren’t….

sr: And outside of our personal relationship, I feel like it is alwyas about pushing boundaries. Again, I feel like we have made soooo much progress. Yet, I feel like again it isn’t enough. I am so open to the fact that you can go out without me and hook-up and even, as I made more clear the other night, sleep with someone, but when we start adding sex to friendships that exist outside of us, I just wonder what the boundarie actually is. Where does it exist?

mark: i do feel like things have gotten much better between us… so much better. and the best thing is that we can talk more about things

sr: yeah, I agree… but the talks are never about how good things are and how happy you or I are, but rather always about what we want to do “next”.

Here’s the real question–will we ever be happy with the status quo?

mark: I do enjoy having the random night out with R I guess I never felt meeting someone and maybe even sleeping with them was possible.

and I mean it’s not as though I feel the need to do it all the time, but yes form time to time I do enjoy exploring that side of me.

and yes I know that it very clear now so it’s a moot point to bring it up

I am very happy with you and what we have and where we have grown. I don’t want you to feel like you’re I’m not and it has to strees you out.

I am very happy with you. if either of us weren’t then I think we wouldn’t be where we are… if one of us were truly unhappy we would know it.

sr: I guess my point is that I hoped you wouldn’t need that. That exploring and flirting and having fun would be enough ourside of us. But you do. And I understand. And I guess I can be ok with the casual hook-up. But that is kind of my point. You haven’t known it was possible–bc you never pushed me I guess to tell you. And I was VERY happy with not being pushed. But you have pushed me now bc I know it is there–brewing. And no, I am not happy with it. But can it work? yes. I would be happy if you were able to be true to me. Bc I married yuo and you decided to be commited to me. But I know you need that so…

But that is kind of the point–the pushing.

mark: and I dont’ feel like I’m pushing things even further I guess it’s lots of the simialr issues

sr: But you are. Bc you flirt and make it clear what you want even if you don’t realize you are doing it. I know.

mark: I guess I just know that it’s there and it’s something I would like to explore…. i do like to explore it with you as much as the nights out alone. I mean I love you and feel so connected with you more than anyone else… but I know the other side of me is something that I can’t ignore and do want to explore it casually… I don’t want anyone else.

sr: I want to know when you talk to someone and when you become someone’s friend. But then at the same point, you have to realize that it does inherently create a relationship. I am NOT jealous or unhappy about your meeting people and being friends with them. Talk to Ben’s wife, and Ben and Sam. I LOVE that you have those people to talk to. But when you then want to cross that line, it inherently becomes more than friendship. And that is when I get weary.

I understand what you are saying, but I guess I stumble when I get to the part of “it’s something that I can’t ignore and want to explore it casually”. You have to recognize that I am in a similar situation. I am also attracted to other people–yes, I am far less sexual than you, but even in a…

mark: and I can understand that …. I can understand that you are worried that it crossed the line into something more of a connection…. and I am conscious of that and don’t want that either… I mean current situation with Sam. I mean we’ve talked fairly casually about regular like stuff… much like we’d talk about meeting causlly in a bar

I don’t want someone other than my wife…. someone other than you

sr: …normal marriage people make the commitment to one another and continue to be attracted to others. But they made the commitment. And that is a hard line to cross. You didn’t have to marry me. You didn’t have to choose me. You could have chose no one. But you CHOSE me.

I get sam. And from what I have read, I think he sounds like a good guy. I agree. And the flirting is fine. I have no problem with the flirting. And the conversations. Those things make me smile. Even the silliness. I LOVE that about you and I love that you get off from being like that. But there is a line, right? If there isn’t why make the choice?

mark: there is a line and I ALWAYS will want to come back to you
to be with you.

i’m so glad that I can share that stuff with you

be my horny self with you and share all that

and I would choose you again…. we made a choice together to redefine things out of the norm…. there is a line totally…

I don’t want to have a relationship with someone…. i want that with you… I LOVE that we can share things together

one sec. trick-or-treaters

that was our first one

I love that you can go out with J and I can hear about jello shots and amzaon woman… i love that we can even go out to a bar together and be silly together… or include others

I do like that we share that and we can enjoy those things together even if they are experienced a part

sr: And when I say that stuff abotu choice, I have already said that if it is what you need, I am fine with the casual hook-up. But realize that, even if I am ok with that, it still is a crossed line for me. Me being someone I am not. I don’t want you to have to come back to me. I don’t want you to be anywhere I am not. That is sort of the point. But I can make that sacrifice (at least for now) if I need to. But remember, in the beginning, that was the line that I wouldn’t cross. But I did. And a while back I made that ok–with JMac, with R with letting you go out. But is that what I WANT–no. I want a husband who made a commitment to me and is willing to live by that decision. Urges, desires or otherwise. And a situation where the silliness is just that–silliness. Silliness that allows for stolen kisses and make-out sessions and jell-o shots and fun but that that may not cross the line outside of our relationship. But somehow we don’t always get what we want.

Realize I love the silliness and I love our times together and I love you pushing my boundaries and I am willing to try whatever it is we need to try.

But that I guess I just constantly feel that we are pushing… further and further away from what we agreed upon to begin.

mark: I know that and that has been why we are together…. and why we are happy…

sr: There is a huge divide right now between what I want and what I am willing to give. And I am making that ok. But you need to realize that.

mark: it is important for me to know that… i do realize that and I do appreciate it…

does what you are willing to give extend to our exploring with others together?

sr: Not sure what you mean. I have always been willing to bring others into us.

mark: ok… I guess since we’re talking so openly I want to fully understand what it is you want for you and then by extension us rather than what you want from me as well

i mean is what you want is for us to have fun, flirty, casual nights out where things don’t go beyond some sexy dancing, casual touches, kissing… but that beyond that is just us

and i don’t want to underestimate the fact that I know how much you’ve given… how much you’ve opened yourself

sr: And, again (I sound slike a broken record!!!), I am willing to let you “fuck around”–blunt, sorry–if you are out and meet some guy and want to get together. But, in my book, it ends there. A fun night out–not a friendship. But, that is where it just gets hard bc if I am waiting at R & J’s for you, and it is 5 am, I am prob. not going to be too happy–we need to figure out the logistics! BC it isn’t that I am mad about you being out–it is that I am mad about the overall situation.

I guess that answered your last question.

mark: I understand that

yes it did

and i understand that

and to be honest in the few times I’ve been out for guys night out I’ve enjoyed the evening and it didn’t need to end in sex… last time was just be being stupid in dealing with drunk people… i should have realized the late hour and that people were trashed

that was just my stupid mistake in that

sr: I don’t object to friendships. Please, recognize that. I just don’t really like the friends with benefits thing unless it is something we are all a part of. (R & J are an example) I prefer the anonymous thing bc I don’t ever want to feel second class in my own marriage and if you have someone who is “important” to you as a friend who you are sleeping with, then that is how I will always see it.

mark: I get that totally and i’m glad you said that

sr: Do you understand it? I mean, really? Anyway. Can I come home now. I don’t want to be here anymore. And now it isn’t early anymore.

so i am at work late and I am not working and that sucks bc I have a lot to do.

mark: i mean i’m never gonna want to go out with R for a night out with the intention of hey i should hook up with someone because that’s my only chance… I

that’s fine come home.. i’m sorry to keep you there late

sr: i know that.

mark: and i’m sorry i brought it up when you have such a crappy week

sr: No–if there is still more to talk about it is fine. I

I thought we were done.

mark: no I completely understand how you feel truly

and that is great for me to know
sr: I know you wouldn’t want to go out with that intention. I don’t think you are a whore (maybe sometimes…)

mark: I’m a slut…. not a whore!

whores have no judgement

sr: But I think you need to understand the lines otherwise.

mark: no i agree and i’m glad for that

and again it’s not so i can or want to take advantage of it, but it’s good to know

i have enjoyed our sex life so much more in the last year (your body not cooperating nothwithstanding which was to out mutual frustration)

sr: Friends are friends. And they need to stay that way. You can flirt and be silly with them and be attracted to them, but otherwise, you will have a relationship (whether you realize it or not) and I won’t be involved and that is where I want no part of it.

mark: come home

sr: ok.

No arguments against that.

i love you

mark: good

i love you too

leave and come home to me!

; ; ; ;


November 1, 2006 - Posted by | Uncategorized


  1. Mark…SR is on the verge of leaving you.And Mark my words Mark….it will be a clean break.You are putting you dick in front of your love for her.
    I am telling you not to listen to your FUCK buddies…but if you want to..I hope you like them allot…because they will be who your are living with…you will see just how honorable and caring for you your FUCK buddies really are.
    If SR had cancer,or lost an arm,would you love her any less?Yet,you aren’t willing to accept the fact that you HAVE to put your dick in your pants and leave it there.
    You act like an addict…drugs booze sex it is all the same.And if you want to hang around other junkies instead of your wife…then you are have no self control and therefore always hunger for more.The hunger will never go away,you will always want that cigarette,joint,beer,dick in your mouth,but you will be filled.You will find the hunger will sometimes totally dissapear…you will live again.
    You call it coming to terms with you you are-accepting that you are bi-sexual/gay.I call that bullshit.How much do you have to FUCK around before you find out who you are…’s just an excuse,Mark….you don’t need to FUCK to accept who you are.You are more then an a series of holes to have other people stick things.
    Right have a choice.Accept responsibility or stay a fucking whore bitch.Being Gay..being bisexual does not mean being a fucking whore bitch.
    Be a fucking and man and do the right thing

    Comment by David | November 1, 2006 | Reply

  2. I suspect I will leave another comment after I spend a few hours digesting this in my mind. Just reading it leaves me in shock, my head swimming.

    There was one little comment – actually two – from SR that really caught my attention. She refered to “never enough” on the sexual front. It is the mirror image of Carrie who when I express my love for her always answers “not enough.”

    It is somehow the crux of these issues. Spouses who love us and are willing to try to compromise – the three somes you have had (and Carrie and I used to talk about), the toys our wives will use on us. When I told another of this world that my wife was willing to use toys with me but our expectations of frequency was wildly different, they admitted to the same problem.

    But always, there is the issue of “not enough”, of “never enough”. I am appalled by much of David’s comments – he needs to get a grip on himself – but he is not wrong that your marriage is at risk. The fact that you are talking is awesome, though as we have discussed, the IM’s I find strange, but you also need to keep listening very hard, sort of like an indian scout with their ear to the ground, listening for the hooves in the distance.

    My heart is with you and I will be thinking much of this.


    Comment by Nate | November 1, 2006 | Reply

  3. it is not an indian scout thing at all,Mark…read what your wife is saying!Do you love her?Are you willing to give up things for her?What is love,Mark?What is love?

    Comment by David | November 1, 2006 | Reply

  4. David, I’m not usually one to engage trolls, and that’s clearly what you are. However, I thought in your case, I should make an exception. I think you have a lot of valuable things to say, but your opinion gets lost in the face of the hate and disrespect you are spewing. If you want to have a healthy debate about the issues Mark has brought up here, I would suggest you rephrase your comments to reflect a willingness to see other points of view. Otherwise, you’re not helping to move this conversation forward and we have no time for you.

    Comment by Cymber | November 1, 2006 | Reply

  5. cymber,you are an enabler…if you want to have a real conversation it is you who will have to remove your hate and disrespect.Do you think I am talking out of my ass?Good.Suck and fuck all that you want…if sex is your toy,then play with it..but what good is a rubber on your dick for anal sex when you swollow what comes out of the same dick when it is in your mouth?You are still bring this home to your wife…sex without love is not nearly as satisfying as making love to someone you love…tellme..what is yourpoint exactly?

    Comment by David | November 2, 2006 | Reply

  6. My point, David, is that you are using vulgarity and shock tactics to elicit a reaction from people instead of relying on the strength of your argument. An argument, I might add, that I would normally agree with, at least in part.

    It’s a shame, because if you were to actually engage me or Mark in any kind of meaningful dialogue, you might learn something, as I would hope I would learn something from you. As it stands, all you have done is insult people and make assumptions about them, which is no way to win friends or influence people.

    But that’s not even what I find the most peculiar about you. What really astounds me is that despite your virulent hatred for Mark and/or everything he stands for, you still appear to not only be reading his blog, but stalking the comments. If it offends you so deeply, might I suggest that you point your browser elsewhere?

    Comment by Cymber | November 2, 2006 | Reply

  7. I never said he offends me.I am in fact,also bi-sexual.I don’t hate him or you.I am just speaking the truth.Call it vulgar if you like,but having constant unprotected sex with someone you don’t even know and then turning to your partner and telling her she just doesn’t support you enough-or isn’t adventurous enough for you is the true vulgarity here.
    I,in fact am rooting for both Mark and SR.He/they can totally discount my point of view if they want,but they should not be afraid to,at least hear it.There is more fullfilling aspects of life then the persuit of mindless pleasure.I am repeating myself.My voice is no longer needed here.So I probably won’t be back.Good luck.God bless

    Comment by David | November 2, 2006 | Reply

  8. David,
    You may not be back to comment, but I suspect you will be back to read.

    I think what strikes me, besides the shock tactics that Cymber refers to, is the dogmatic nature of your position. Life is nuance and subtelties. Life is complex.

    I wish it was as simple as you make it sound. I wish I had a choice of my desires – I know David, I have a choice of my actions – but to just discount desires, urges, etc. on a forward charge to monogamy may be commendable, but to steal Woody Allen’s line “Excuse me but I have an appointment back on planet earth.

    Comment by Nate | November 2, 2006 | Reply

  9. I guess I do have more to say…If you are an alcoholic should you act on your every desire to drink?If you are on a diet should you act on every desire to eat cheesecake?You act like denying yourself is the worst sin that you can make.Should a girl that cuts herself just keep cutting herself every time she wants?The heroin addict shoot up because he desires it?Should you be allowed to jack off in public just because you’re horny and ‘really can’t control your desire’?Your LAME excuse of this is ‘reality’ and ‘you can’t help yourself’ is so pathetic I want to go Boo Hoo Hoo….poor little you,has to always have every little thing he needs and wants boo hoo hoo’….This is America,damn it.You can be anything you want to be.If you want to slut around-go ahead-whose the fuck stopping you:BUT YOU DON’T HAVE TO.Your slutting around is a choice.If you don’t want to exercise self control,don’t.But if you are telling ME that if I am Bi-sexual I ‘have’ to have same sex sex because if I don’t I am damaging myself,then FUCK YOU.If I want to be Bi and not act on every single impulse that comes my way:That’s who I am!That is what”I” want.And to tell Mark he has no choice because nature is nature is not only wrong,but media induced wrong.You are a sheep following another sheep following another sheep.A cheap stereotype just doing what you are told to do…a freakin conformist pretending to be a rebel.YOU ALWAYS HAVE A CHOICE.and if I am an ignorant bastard for telling you so,then cuss me the next time you are fucking someone you don’t even know…I don’t care

    Comment by David | November 2, 2006 | Reply

  10. Hey Mark, sorry to hijack your blog there. I think what is getting lost in all of this is how important it is that you were willing to post these conversations with SR. I think she perfectly articulated what many (if not all) wives in this situation are thinking, and yet, it’s a point of view I don’t see expressed much in this community.

    I may not agree with everything she had to say (or everything you had to say, for that matter) but the overall conversation has certainly given me a lot to think about. And it has prompted some very interesting conversations between my spouse and me.

    I really appreciate your willingness to share what is obviously a highly personal chat. Thanks.

    Comment by Cymber | November 2, 2006 | Reply

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